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The Pragmatic Engineer

ByGergely Orosz
30 episodes

Podcast Summary

Software engineering at Big Tech and startups, from the inside. Deepdives with experienced engineers and tech professionals who share their hard-earned lessons, interesting stories and advice they have on building software. After each episode, you’ll walk away with pragmatic approaches you can use to build stuff – whether you are a software engineer, or a manager of engineers.

#1

50 Years of Microsoft and Developer Tools with Scott Guthrie

How has Microsoft changed since its founding in 1975, especially in how it builds tools for developers?In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I sit down with Scott Guthrie, Executive Vice President of Cloud and AI at Microsoft. Scott has been with the company for 28 years. He built the first prototype of ASP.NET, led the Windows Phone team, led up Azure, and helped shape many of Microsoft’s most important developer platforms.We talk about Microsoft’s journey from building early dev tools to becoming a top cloud provider—and how it actively worked to win back and grow its developer base.In this episode, we cover:• Microsoft’s early years building developer tools • Why Visual Basic faced resistance from devs back in the day: even though it simplified development at the time• How .NET helped bring a new generation of server-side developers into Microsoft’s ecosystem• Why Windows Phone didn’t succeed • The 90s Microsoft dev stack: docs, debuggers, and more• How Microsoft Azure went from being the cloud provider to the spot today• Why Microsoft created VS Code• How VS Code and open source led to the acquisition of GitHub• What Scott’s excited about in the future of developer tools and AI• And much more!—Brought to you by:•⁠ Statsig ⁠ — ⁠ The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more.•⁠ Sinch⁠ — Connect with customers at every step of their journey.•⁠ Modal⁠ — The cloud platform for building AI applications.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Microsoft is dogfooding AI dev tools’ future• Microsoft’s developer tools roots• Why are Cloud Development Environments spiking in popularity, now?• Engineering career paths at Big Tech and scaleups• How Linux is built with Greg Kroah-Hartman—Where to find Scott Guthrie:• X: LinkedIn: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:25) Microsoft’s early years building developer tools(06:15) How Microsoft’s developer tools helped Windows succeed(08:00) Microsoft’s first tools were built to a...

2025-06-04•1hr 4mins
#2

From Software Engineer to AI Engineer – with Janvi Kalra

What does it take to land a job as an AI Engineer—and thrive in the role?In this episode of Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Janvi Kalra, currently an AI Engineer at OpenAI. Janvi shares how she broke into tech with internships at top companies, landed a full-time software engineering role at Coda, and later taught herself the skills to move into AI Engineering: by things like building projects in her free time, joining hackathons, and ultimately proving herself and earning a spot on Coda’s first AI Engineering team.In our conversation, we dive into the world of AI Engineering and discuss three types of AI companies, how to assess them based on profitability and growth, and practical advice for landing your dream job in the field.We also discuss the following: • How Janvi landed internships at Google and Microsoft, and her tips for interview prepping• A framework for evaluating AI startups• An overview of what an AI Engineer does• A mini curriculum for self-learning AI: practical tools that worked for Janvi• The Coda project that impressed CEO Shishir Mehrotra and sparked Coda Brain• Janvi’s role at OpenAI and how the safety team shapes responsible AI• How OpenAI blends startup speed with big tech scale• Why AI Engineers must be ready to scrap their work and start over• Why today’s engineers need to be product-minded, design-aware, full-stack, and focused on driving business outcomes• And much more!—Brought to you by:•⁠ Statsig ⁠ — ⁠ The unified platform for flags, analytics, experiments, and more.•⁠ Sinch⁠ — Connect with customers at every step of their journey.•⁠ Cortex⁠ — Your Portal to Engineering Excellence.⁠—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:•⁠ AI Engineering in the real world•⁠ The AI Engineering stack•⁠ Building, launching, and scaling ChatGPT Images⁠—Where to find Janvi Kalra:• X: LinkedIn: Substack: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:31) How Janvi got her internships at Google and Microsoft(03:35) How Janvi prepared for he...

2025-05-28•1hr 9mins
#3

How Kubernetes is Built with Kat Cosgrove

Kubernetes is the second-largest open-source project in the world. What does it actually do—and why is it so widely adopted?In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Kat Cosgrove, who has led several Kubernetes releases. Kat has been contributing to Kubernetes for several years, and originally got involved with the project through K3s (the lightweight Kubernetes distribution).In our conversation, we discuss how Kubernetes is structured, how it scales, and how the project is managed to avoid contributor burnout.We also go deep into: • An overview of what Kubernetes is used for• A breakdown of Kubernetes architecture: components, pods, and kubelets• Why Google built Borg, and how it evolved into Kubernetes• The benefits of large-scale open source projects—for companies, contributors, and the broader ecosystem• The size and complexity of Kubernetes—and how it’s managed• How the project protects contributors with anti-burnout policies• The size and structure of the release team• What KEPs are and how they shape Kubernetes features• Kat’s views on GenAI, and why Kubernetes blocks using AI, at least for documentation• Where Kat would like to see AI tools improve developer workflows• Getting started as a contributor to Kubernetes—and the career and networking benefits that come with it• And much more!—Brought to you by:•⁠ WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.•⁠ Modal⁠ — The cloud platform for building AI applications.•⁠ Cortex⁠ — Your Portal to Engineering Excellence.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:•⁠ Backstage: an open source developer portal•⁠ How Linux is built with Greg Kroah-Hartman•⁠ Software engineers leading projects•⁠ What TPMs do and what software engineers can learn from them•⁠ Engineering career paths at Big Tech and scaleups—Where to find Kat Cosgrove: • Bluesky: LinkedIn: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:02) An overview of Kubernetes and who it’s for (04:27) A quick glimpse at the architecture...

2025-05-14•1hr 8mins
#4

Building Windsurf with Varun Mohan

What happens when LLMs meet real-world codebases? In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by Varun Mohan, CEO and Co-Founder of Windsurf. Varun talks me through the technical challenges of building an AI-native IDE (Windsurf) and how these tools are changing the way software gets built. We discuss: • What building self-driving cars taught the Windsurf team about evaluating LLMs• How LLMs for text are missing capabilities for coding like “fill in the middle”• How Windsurf optimizes for latency• Windsurf’s culture of taking bets and learning from failure• Breakthroughs that led to Cascade (agentic capabilities)• Why the Windsurf teams build their LLMs• How non-dev employees at Windsurf build custom SaaS apps – with Windsurf!• How Windsurf empowers engineers to focus on more interesting problems• The skills that will remain valuable as AI takes over more of the codebase• And much more!—Brought to you by:•⁠ Modal⁠ — The cloud platform for building AI applications•⁠ ⁠CodeRabbit⁠⁠⁠ — Cut code review time and bugs in half. Use the code PRAGMATIC to get one month free.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• IDEs with GenAI features that Software Engineers love• AI tooling for Software Engineers in 2024: reality check• How AI-assisted coding will change software engineering: hard truths• AI tools for software engineers, but without the hype—Where to find Varun Mohan:• X: LinkedIn: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(01:37) How Windsurf tests new models(08:25) Windsurf’s origin story (13:03) The current size and scope of Windsurf(16:04) The missing capabilities Windsurf uncovered in LLMs when used for coding(20:40) Windsurf’s work with fine-tuning inside companies (24:00) Challenges developers face with Windsurf and similar tools as codebases scale(27:06) Windsurf’s stack and an explanation of FedRAMP compliance(29:22) How Windsurf protects latency and the problems with local data that remain unsolved(33:40) Windsurf’s processes for in...

2025-05-07•1hr 27mins
#5

How to work better with Product, as an Engineer with Ebi Atawodi

How do you get product and engineering to truly operate as one team? Today, I’m joined by Ebi Atawodi, Director of Product Management at YouTube Studio, and a former product leader at Netflix and Uber.Ebi was the first PM I partnered with after stepping into engineering management at Uber, and we both learned a lot together. We share lessons from our time at Uber and discuss how strong product-engineering partnerships drive better outcomes, grow teams, foster cultures of ownership, and unlock agency, innovation, and trust.In this episode, we cover:• Why you need to earn a new team's trust before trying to drive change• How practices like the "business scorecard" and “State of the Union” updates helped communicate business goals and impact to teams at Uber• How understanding business impact leads to more ideas and collaboration• A case for getting to know your team as people, not just employees• Why junior employees should have a conversation with a recruiter every six months• Ebi’s approach to solving small problems with the bet that they’ll unlock larger, more impactful solutions• Why investing time in trust and connection isn't at odds with efficiency• The qualities of the best engineers—and why they’re the same traits that make people successful in any role• The three-pronged definition of product: business impact, feasibility, and customer experience• Why you should treat your career as a project• And more!—Brought to you by:•⁠ WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.•⁠ The Software Engineer’s Guidebook: Written by me (Gergely) – now out in audio form as well.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• The product-minded software engineer• Working with Product Managers as an Engineering Manager or Engineer• Working with Product Managers: advice from PMs• What is Growth Engineering?—Where to find Ebi Atawodi:• X: LinkedIn: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:19) The product review where Gergely first met Ebi (05:45) Ebi’s learn...

2025-04-30•1hr 15mins
#6

Building Reddit’s iOS and Android app

Reddit’s native mobile apps are more complex than most of us would assume: both the iOS and Android apps are about 2.5 million lines of code, have 500+ screens, and a total of around 200 native iOS and Android engineers work on them. But it wasn’t always like this.In 2021, Reddit started to double down on hiring native mobile engineers, and they quietly rebuilt the Android and iOS apps from the ground up. The team introduced a new tech stack called the “Core Stack” – all the while users remained largely unaware of the changes. What drove this overhaul, and how did the team pull it off?In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by three engineers from Reddit’s mobile platform team who led this work: Lauren Darcey (Head of Mobile Platform), Brandon Kobilansky (iOS Platform Lead), and Eric Kuck (Principal Android Engineer). We discuss how the team transitioned to a modern architecture, revamped their testing strategy, improved developer experience – while they also greatly improved the app’s user experience. We also get into: • How Reddit structures its mobile teams—and why iOS and Android remain intentionally separate • The scale of Reddit’s mobile codebase and how it affects compile time• The shift from MVP to MVVM architecture• Why Reddit took a bet on Jetpack Compose, but decided (initially) against using SwiftUI• How automated testing evolved at Reddit • Reddit’s approach to server-driven-mobile-UI• What the mobile platforms team looks for in a new engineering hire• Reddit’s platform team’s culture of experimentation and embracing failure • And much more!If you are interested in large-scale rewrites or native mobile engineering challenges: this episode is for you.—Brought to you by:• Graphite — The AI developer productivity platform. • Sentry — Error and performance monitoring for developers.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• The platform and program split at Uber• Why and how Notion went native on iOS and Android• Paying d...

2025-04-23•1hr 26mins
#7

Working at Amazon as a software engineer – with Dave Anderson

What is it like to work at Amazon as a software engineer? Dave Anderson spent over 12 years at Amazon working closely with engineers on his teams: starting as an Engineering Manager (or, SDM in Amazon lingo) and eventually becoming a Director of Engineering. In this episode, he shares a candid look into Amazon’s engineering culture—from how promotions work to why teams often run like startups.We get into the hiring process, the role of bar raisers, the pros and cons of extreme frugality, and what it takes to succeed inside one of the world’s most operationally intense companies. We also look at how engineering actually works day to day at Amazon—from the tools teams choose to the way they organize and deliver work. We also discuss:• The levels at Amazon, from SDE L4 to Distinguished Engineer and VP• Why engineering managers at Amazon need to write well• The “Bar Raiser” role in Amazon interview loops • Why Amazon doesn’t care about what programming language you use in interviews• Amazon’s oncall process• The pros and cons of Amazon’s extreme frugality • What to do if you're getting negative performance feedback• The importance of having a strong relationship with your manager• The surprising freedom Amazon teams have to choose their own stack, tools, and ways of working – and how a team chose to use Lisp (!)• Why startups love hiring former Amazon engineers• Dave’s approach to financial independence and early retirement• And more!—Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.•⁠ Modal⁠ — The cloud platform for building AI applications• Vanta — Automate compliance and simplify security with Vanta.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Inside Amazon’s engineering culture• A day in the life of a senior manager at Amazon• Amazon’s Operational Plan process with OP1 and OP2—Where to find Dave Anderson:• X: LinkedIn: Newsletter: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:08) An overview of Amazon’s levels for devs and enginee...

2025-04-16•1hr 27mins
#8

The Philosophy of Software Design – with John Ousterhout

How will AI tools change software engineering? Tools like Cursor, Windsurf and Copilot are getting better at autocomplete, generating tests and documentation. But what is changing, when it comes to software design?Stanford professor John Ousterhout thinks not much. In fact, he believes that great software design is becoming even more important as AI tools become more capable in generating code. In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, John joins me to talk about why design still matters and how most teams struggle to get it right. We dive into his book A Philosophy of Software Design, unpack the difference between top-down and bottom-up approaches, and explore why some popular advice, like writing short methods or relying heavily on TDD, does not hold up, according to John.We also explore: • The differences between working in industry vs. academia • Why John believes software design will become more important as AI capabilities expand• The top-down and bottoms-up design approaches – and why you should use both• John’s “design it twice” principle• Why deep modules are essential for good software design • Best practices for special cases and exceptions• The undervalued trait of empathy in design thinking• Why John advocates for doing some design upfront• John’s criticisms of the single-responsibility principle, TDD, and why he’s a fan of well-written comments • And much more!—Brought to you by:•⁠ CodeRabbit⁠ — Cut code review time and bugs in half. Use the code PRAGMATIC to get one month free.•⁠ Modal — The cloud platform for building AI applications—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Engineering Planning with RFCs, Design Documents and ADRs• Paying down tech debt• Software architect archetypes• Building Bluesky: a distributed social network⁠—Where to find John Ousterhout:• X: Website: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro (02:00) Why John transitioned back to academia(03:47) Working in academia vs. industry (07:20) Tactical tornadoes vs....

2025-04-09•1hr 21mins

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#9

Stacked diffs and tooling at Meta with Tomas Reimers

Why did Meta build its own internal developer tooling instead of using industry-standard solutions like GitHub? Tomas Reimers, former Meta engineer and co-founder of Graphite, joins the show to talk about Meta's custom developer tools – many of which were years ahead of the industry.From Phabricator to Sandcastle and Butterflybot, Tomas shares examples of Meta’s internal tools that transformed developer productivity at the tech giant. Why did working with stacked diffs and using monorepos become best practices at Meta? How are these practices influencing the broader industry? Why are code reviews and testing looking to become even more critical as AI transforms how we write software? We answer these, and also discuss:• Meta's custom internal developer tools• Why more tech companies are transitioning from polyrepos to monorepos• A case for different engineering constraints within the same organization• How stacked diffs solve the code review bottleneck• Graphite’s origin story and pivot to their current product • Why code reviews will become a lot more important, the more we use AI coding tools• Tomas’s favorite engineering metric • And much more!—Brought to you by:• Swarmia — The engineering intelligence platform for modern software organizations.• Sentry — Error and performance monitoring for developers.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Stacked Diffs (and why you should know about them)• Inside Meta’s engineering culture• Shipping to production• How Uber is measuring engineering productivity —Where to find Tomas Reimers:• X: LinkedIn: Website: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:00) An introduction to Meta’s in-house tooling (05:07) How Meta’s integrated tools work and who built the tools(10:20) An overview of the rules engine, Herald (12:20) The stages of code ownership at Facebook and code ownership at Google and GitHub(14:39) Tomas’s approach to code ownership (16:15) A case for different constraints within different parts of a...

2025-04-02•1hr 13mins
#10

Building Figma Slides with Noah Finer and Jonathan Kaufman

How do you take a new product idea, and turn it into a successful product? Figma Slides started as a hackathon project a year and a half ago – and today it’s a full-on product, with more than 4.5M slide decks created by users. I’m joined by two founding engineers on this project: Jonathan Kaufman and Noah Finer.In our chat, Jonathan and Noah pull back the curtain on what it took to build Figma Slides. They share engineering challenges faced, interesting engineering practices utilized, and what it's like working on a product used by millions of designers worldwide.We talk about:• An overview of Figma Slides• The tech stack behind Figma Slides• Why the engineering team built grid view before single slide view• How Figma ensures that all Figma files look the same across browsers• Figma’s "vibe testing" approach• How beta testing helped experiment more• The “all flags on”, “all flags off” testing approach• Engineering crits at Figma• And much more!—Brought to you by:• Graphite — The AI developer productivity platform. • Sonar — Code quality and code security for ALL code. • Chronosphere — The observability platform built for control.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Inside Figma’s engineering culture• Quality Assurance across the tech industry• Shipping to production• Design-first software engineering⁠⁠⁠—Where to find Jonathan Kaufman:• X: LinkedIn: Website: to find Noah Finer: • X: LinkedIn: Website: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(01:45) An overview of Figma Slides and the first steps in building it(06:41) Why Figma built grid view before single slide view(10:00) The next steps of building UI after grid view (12:10) The team structure and size of the Figma Slides team (14:14) The tech stack behind Figma Slides(15:31) How Figma uses C++ with bindings (17:43) The Chrome debugging extension used for C++ and WebAssembly (21:02) An example of how Noah used the debugging tool(22:18) Challenges in building Figma Slides (23:15) An explanati...

2025-03-26•58mins
#11

How Linux is built with Greg Kroah-Hartman

Linux is the most widespread operating system, globally – but how is it built? Few people are better to answer this than Greg Kroah-Hartman: a Linux kernel maintainer for 25 years, and one of the 3 Linux Kernel Foundation Fellows (the other two are Linus Torvalds and Shuah Khan). Greg manages the Linux kernel’s stable releases, and is a maintainer of multiple kernel subsystems.We cover the inner workings of Linux kernel development, exploring everything from how changes get implemented to why its community-driven approach produces such reliable software. Greg shares insights about the kernel's unique trust model and makes a case for why engineers should contribute to open-source projects. We go into:• How widespread is Linux?• What is the Linux kernel responsible for – and why is it a monolith?• How does a kernel change get merged? A walkthrough• The 9-week development cycle for the Linux kernel• Testing the Linux kernel• Why is Linux so widespread?• The career benefits of open-source contribution• And much more!—Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.• Vanta — Automate compliance and simplify security with Vanta.⁠—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• What TPMs do and what software engineers can learn from them: • The past and future of modern backend practices: • Backstage: an open-source developer portal: ⁠—Where to find Greg Kroah-Hartman:• Social: • Website: —In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:23) How widespread is Linux?(06:00) The difference in complexity in different devices powered by Linux (09:20) What is the Linux kernel?(14:00) Why trust is so important with the Linux kernel development(16:02) A walk-through of a kernel change(23:20) How Linux kernel development cycles work(29:55) The testing process at Kernel and Kernel CI (31:55) A case for the open source development process(35:44) Linux kernel branches: Stable vs. development(38:32) Challenges of maintaining older Linux code (40:30) Ho...

2025-03-19•1hr 21mins
#12

Developer Experience at Uber with Gautam Korlam

In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by former Uber colleague, Gautam Korlam. Gautam is the Co-Founder of Gitar, an agentic AI startup that automates code maintenance. Gautam was mobile engineer no. 9 at Uber and founding engineer for the mobile platform team – and so he learned a few things about scaling up engineering teams.We talk about:• How Gautam accidentally deleted Uber’s Java monorepo – really!• Uber's unique engineering stack and why custom solutions like SubmitQueue were built in-house• Monorepo: the benefits and downsides of this approach• From Engineer II to Principal Engineer at Uber: Gautam’s career trajectory• Practical strategies for building trust and gaining social capital • How the platform team at Uber operated with a product-focused mindset• Vibe coding: why it helps with quick prototyping• How AI tools are changing developer experience and productivity• Important skills for devs to pick up to remain valuable as AI tools spread• And more! —Brought to you by:• Sentry — Error and performance monitoring for developers.• The Software Engineer’s Guidebook: Written by me (Gergely) – now out in audio form as well.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• The Platform and Program split at Uber• How Uber is measuring engineering productivity• Inside Uber’s move to the Cloud• How Uber built its observability platform• Software Architect Archetypes—Where to find Gautam Korlam:• X: LinkedIn: this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:11) How Gautam accidentally deleted Uber’s Java Monorepo(05:40) The impact of Gautam’s mistake(06:35) Uber’s unique engineering stack(10:15) Uber’s SubmitQueue(12:44) Why Uber moved to a monorepo(16:30) The downsides of a monorepo(18:35) Measurement products built in-house (20:20) Measuring developer productivity and happiness (22:52) How Devpods improved developer productivity (27:37) The challenges with cloud development environments(29:10) Gautam’s journey from Eng II to Principal En...

2025-03-12•1hr 20mins
#13

Design-first software engineering: Craft – with Balint Orosz

Not many people know that I have a brother: Balint Orosz. Balint is also in tech, but in many ways, is the opposite of me. While I prefer working on backend and business logic, he always thrived in designing and building UIs. While I opted to work at more established companies, he struck out on his own and started his startup, Distinction. And yet, our professional paths have crossed several times: at one point in time I accepted an offer to join Skyscanner as a Principal iOS Engineer – and as part of the negotiation, I added a clause to my contrac that I will not report directly or indirectly to the Head of Mobile: who happened to be my brother, thanks to Skyscanner acquiring his startup the same month that Skyscanner made an offer to hire me.Today, Balint is the founder and CEO of Craft, a beloved text editor known for its user-friendly interface and sleek design – an app that Apple awarded the prestigious Mac App of the Year in 2021.In our conversation, we explore how Balint approaches building opinionated software with an intense focus on user experience. We discuss the lessons he learned from his time building Distinction and working at Skyscanner that have shaped his approach to Craft and its development.In this episode, we discuss:• Balint’s first startup, Distinction, and his time working for Skyscanner after they acquired it• A case for a balanced engineering culture with both backend and frontend priorities • Why Balint doesn’t use iOS Auto Layout• The impact of Craft being personal software on front-end and back-end development• The balance between customization and engineering fear in frontend work• The resurgence of local-first software and its role in modern computing• The value of building a physical prototype • How Balint uses GenAI to assist with complicated coding projects • And much more!—Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.• The Software Engineer’s Guidebook: Written by me (Gergely) – now out in audio form as...

2025-03-05•1hr 12mins
#14

The man behind the Big Tech comics – with Manu Cornet

In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by a senior software engineer and cartoonist, Manu Cornet. Manu spent over a decade at Google, doing both backend and frontend development. He also spent a year and a half at Twitter before Elon Musk purchased it and rebranded it to b. But what Manu is most known for are his hilarious internet comics about the tech world, including his famous org chart comic from 2011 about Facebook, Apple, Amazon, and Microsoft.In today’s conversation, we explore many of his comics, discuss the meaning behind them, and talk about the following topics: • The viral org chart comic that captured the structure of Big Tech companies• Why Google is notorious for confusing product names• The comic that ended up on every door at Google• How Google’s 20% time fostered innovation—and what projects came from it• How one of Manu’s comics predicted Google Stadia’s failure—and the reasons behind it• The value of connecting to users directly • Twitter’s climate before and after Elon Musk’s acquisition and the mass layoffs that followed• And more!—Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.• Graphite — The AI developer productivity platform. • Formation — Level up your career and compensation with Formation. —The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• How Manu creates comics• Consolidating technologies• Is Big Tech becoming more cutthroat?—Where to find Manu Cornet:• Mastodon: LinkedIn: Website: to find Gergely Orosz: • X: LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • Newsletter and blog: ⁠ —In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Intro(02:01) Manu’s org structure comic (07:10) Manu’s “Who Sues Who” comic(09:15) Google vs. Amazon comic(14:10) Confusing names at Google(20:00) Different approaches to sharing information within companies(22:20) The two ways of doing things at Google(25:15) Manu’s code reviews comic(27:45) The comic that was printed on every single door of Google(30:55) An explanation of 20% at Google(36:00) Gmai...

2025-02-26•1hr 7mins
#15

Developer productivity with Dr. Nicole Forsgren (the creator of DORA)

In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by computer scientist Dr. Nicole Forsgren, one of the foremost experts in developer productivity. In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by one of the foremost experts in developer productivity: Dr. Nicole Forsgren. Nicole is the creator of the widely adopted DORA and SPACE frameworks, co-author of the award-winning book Accelerate and the DevOps Handbook (2nd edition), and author of the State of DevOps reports. She is currently a Partner at Microsoft Research, leading developer productivity research and strategy, and is currently working on a book about developer experience with Abi Noda.In this conversation, we discuss Nicole’s frameworks for productivity, the evolution of engineering metrics, and the role of developer experience. We discuss the following: • Why PRs and Diffs are incomplete as a solo metric and how to view them in context• The importance of a holistic set of metrics for evaluating productivity• An overview of DORA’s four key metrics, its strengths, and its limitations• The evolution of processes and tools since DORA, including SPACE• What developer experience is—and concrete ways to improve it• Common characteristics of highly productive engineering teams• How faster onboarding might challenge Brook’s Law• How AI tooling is impacting developer productivity and best practices for experimentation• And much more!—Brought to you by:• DX — An engineering intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. • Sentry — Error and performance monitoring for developers.—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• Measuring Developer Productivity: Real-World Examples • A new way to measure developer productivity – from the creators of DORA and SPACE• Measuring Engineering Efficiency at LinkedIn• How Uber is Measuring Engineering Productivity• Measuring software engineering productivity—Where to find Dr. Nicole Forsgren:• X: LinkedIn: Website: to find Gergely Or...

2025-02-19•1hr 22mins
#16

Live streaming at world-record scale with Ashutosh Agrawal

In May 2023, a live streaming world record was set with 32 million concurrent viewers watching the finale of the Indian Premier League cricket finale. A chat with the architect behind this system: Ashutosh Agrawal, formerly Chief Architect of JioCinema (and currently Staff Software Engineer at Google DeepMind.)We take a deep dive into video streaming architecture, tackling the complexities of live streaming at scale (at tens of millions of parallel streams) and the challenges engineers face in delivering seamless experiences. We talk about the following topics: • How large-scale live streaming architectures are designed• Tradeoffs in optimizing performance• Early warning signs of streaming failures and how to detect them• Why capacity planning for streaming is SO difficult• The technical hurdles of streaming in APAC regions• Why Ashutosh hates APMs (Application Performance Management systems)• Ashutosh’s advice for those looking to improve their systems design expertise• And much more!—Brought to you by:• WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS• CodeRabbit — Cut code review time and bugs in half. Use the code PRAGMATIC to get one month free.•Augment Code — AI coding assistant that pro engineering teams love—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:⁠ •Software architect archetypes•Engineering leadership skill set overlaps•Software architecture with Grady Booch—Where to find Ashutosh Agrawal:• X: LinkedIn: Medium: to find Gergely Orosz: • X:⁠⁠⁠ LinkedIn:⁠⁠⁠ • Newsletter and blog:⁠⁠⁠ —In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro(01:28) The world record-breaking live stream and how support works with live events(05:57) An overview of streaming architecture(21:48) The differences between internet streaming and traditional television.l(22:26) How adaptive bitrate streaming works(25:30) How throttling works on the mobile tower side (27:46) Leading indicators of streaming problems and the data visualization needed(31:03) How metrics are set (33:3...

2025-02-12•1hr 2mins
#17

AI Engineering with Chip Huyen

On today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Chip Huyen, a computer scientist, author of the freshly published O’Reilly book AI Engineering, and an expert in applied machine learning. Chip has worked as a researcher at Netflix, was a core developer at NVIDIA (building NeMo, NVIDIA’s GenAI framework), and co-founded Claypot AI. She also taught Machine Learning at Stanford University. In this conversation, we dive into the evolving field of AI Engineering and explore key insights from Chip’s book, including: • How AI Engineering differs from Machine Learning Engineering • Why fine-tuning is usually not a tactic you’ll want (or need) to use • The spectrum of solutions to customer support problems – some not even involving AI! • The challenges of LLM evals (evaluations) • Why project-based learning is valuable—but even better when paired with structured learning • Exciting potential use cases for AI in education and entertainment • And more! — Brought to you by: • Swarmia — The engineering intelligence platform for modern software organizations. • Graphite — The AI developer productivity platform. • Vanta — Automate compliance and simplify security with Vanta. — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • Applied AI Software Engineering: RAG • How do AI software engineering agents work? • AI Tooling for Software Engineers in 2024: Reality Check • IDEs with GenAI features that Software Engineers love — Where to find Chip Huyen: • X: • LinkedIn: • Website: — Where to find Gergely Orosz: • X: ⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠ • Bluesky: ⁠⁠ • Newsletter and blog: ⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (01:31) A quick overview of AI Engineering (06:45) How Chip ensured her book stays current amidst the rapid advancements in AI (11:35) A definition of AI Engineering and how it differs from Machine Learning Engineering (18:15) Simple first steps in building AI applications (24:38) An explanation of BM25 (retrieval system) (25:28) The problems associa...

2025-02-05•1hr 14mins
#18

Building a best-selling game with a tiny team – with Jonas Tyroller

In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Jonas Tyroller, one of the developers behind Thronefall, a minimalist indie strategy game that blends tower defense and kingdom-building, now available on Steam. Jonas takes us through the journey of creating Thronefall from start to finish, offering insights into the world of indie game development. We explore: • Why indie developers often skip traditional testing and how they find bugs • The developer workflow using Unity, C# and Blender • The two types of prototypes game developers build • Why Jonas spent months building game prototypes in 1-2 days • How Jonas uses ChatGPT to build games • Jonas’s tips on making games that sell • And more! — Brought to you by: • Formation — Level up your career and compensation with Formation. • WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS • Vanta — Automate compliance and simplify security with Vanta. — The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode: • Game development basics ⁠ • Building a simple game using Unity ⁠ — Where to find Jonas Tyroller: • X: • LinkedIn: • YouTube: — Where to find Gergely Orosz: • X: ⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠ • Bluesky: ⁠ • Newsletter and blog: ⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (02:07) Building in Unity (04:05) What the shader tool is used for (08:44) How a Unity build is structured (11:01) How game developers write and debug code (16:21) Jonas’s Unity workflow (18:13) Importing assets from Blender (21:06) The size of Thronefall and how it can be so small (24:04) Jonas’s thoughts on code review (26:42) Why practices like code review and source control might not be relevant for all contexts (30:40) How Jonas and Paul ensure the game is fun (32:25) How Jonas and Paul used beta testing feedback to improve their game (35:14) The mini-games in Thronefall and why they are so difficult (38:14) The struggle to find the right level of difficulty for the game (41:43) Porting to Nintendo Switch (45:11) The prototypes Jonas and Paul ...

2025-01-29•1hr 29mins
#19

Observability: the present and future, with Charity Majors

In today's episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I'm joined by Charity Majors, a well-known observability expert – as well as someone with strong and grounded opinions. Charity is the co-author of "Observability Engineering" and brings extensive experience as an operations and database engineer and an engineering manager. She is the cofounder and CTO of observability scaleup Honeycomb. Our conversation explores the ever-changing world of observability, covering these topics: • What is observability? Charity’s take • What is “Observability 2.0?” • Why Charity is a fan of platform teams • Why DevOps is an overloaded term: and probably no longer relevant • What is cardinality? And why does it impact the cost of observability so much? • How OpenTelemetry solves for vendor lock-in • Why Honeycomb wrote its own database • Why having good observability should be a prerequisite to adding AI code or using AI agents • And more! — Brought to you by: • Sonar — Trust your developers – verify your AI-generated code. • Vanta — Automate compliance and simplify security with Vanta. — Where to find Charity Majors: • X: • LinkedIn: • Blog: — Where to find Gergely Orosz: • X: • LinkedIn: • Bluesky: • Newsletter and blog: — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (04:20) Charity’s inspiration for writing Observability Engineering (08:20) An overview of Scuba at Facebook (09:16) A software engineer’s definition of observability (13:15) Observability basics (15:10) The three pillars model (17:09) Observability 2.0 and the shift to unified storage (22:50) Who owns observability and the advantage of platform teams (25:05) Why DevOps is becoming unnecessary (27:01) The difficulty of observability (29:01) Why observability is so expensive (30:49) An explanation of cardinality and its impact on cost (34:26) How to manage cost with tools that use structured data (38:35) The common worry of vendor lock-in (40:01) An explanation of OpenTelemetry (43:45) What developers get wrong about observabil...

2025-01-22•1hr 14mins
#20

“The Coding Machine” at Meta with Michael Novati

In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Michael Novati, Co-founder and CTO of Formation. Before launching Formation, Michael spent eight years at Meta, where he was recognized as the top code committer company-wide for several years. The “Coding Machine” archetype was modeled after Michael at the company. In our conversation, we talk about what it was like working at Meta and dive into its engineering culture. Michael shares his journey of quickly climbing the ranks from intern to principal-level and gives level-headed advice on leveling up your career. Plus, we discuss his work at Formation, where he helps engineers grow and land roles at top tech companies. In this episode, we cover: • An overview of software architect archetypes at Meta, including “the coding machine” • Meta’s org structure, levels of engineers, and career trajectories • The importance of maintaining a ‘brag list’ to showcase your achievements and impact • Meta’s engineering culture and focus on building internal tools • How beating Mark Zuckerberg in a game of Risk led to him accepting Michael’s friend request • An inside look at Meta’s hiring process • Tips for software engineers on the job market on how to do better in technical interviews • And more! — Brought to you by: • Vanta — Automate compliance and simplify security with Vanta. • WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. — Where to find Michael Novati: • X: • LinkedIn: • Facebook: — Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (01:45) An explanation of archetypes at Meta, including “the coding machine” (09:14) The organizational structure and levels of software engineers at Meta (10:05) Michael’s first project re-writing the org chart as an intern at Meta (12:42) A brief overview of Michael’s work at Meta (15:29) Meta’s engineering first culture and how Michael pushed for even more for ICs (20:03) How te...

2025-01-15•1hr 15mins
#21

Confessions of a Big Tech recruiter – with Blake Stockman

In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I catch up with one of the best tech recruiters I’ve had the opportunity to work with: Blake Stockman, a former colleague of mine from Uber. Blake built a strong reputation in the recruiting world, working at tech giants like Google, Meta, and Uber. He also spent time with Y Combinator and founded his agency, where he helped both large tech companies and early-stage startups find and secure top talent. A few months ago, Blake did a career pivot: he is now studying to become a lawyer. I pounced on this perfect opportunity to have him share all that he’s seen behind-the-scenes in tech recruitment: sharing his observations unfiltered. In our conversation, Blake shares recruitment insights from his time at Facebook, Google, and Uber and his experience running his own tech recruitment agency. We discuss topics such as:• A step-by-step breakdown of hiring processes at Big Tech and startups • How to get the most out of your tech recruiter, as a candidate • Best practices for hiring managers to work with their recruiter • Why you shouldn’t disclose salary expectations upfront, plus tips for negotiating • Where to find the best startup opportunities and how to evaluate them—including understanding startup compensation • And much more! — Brought to you by: • DX — DX is an engineering intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. • Vanta — Automate compliance and simplify security with Vanta. — Where to find Blake Stockman: • LinkedIn: — Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (01:40) Tips for working with recruiters (06:11) Why hiring managers should have more conversations with recruiters (09:48) A behind-the-scenes look at the hiring process at big tech companies (13:38) How hiring worked at Uber when Gergely and Blake were there (16:46) An explanation of calibration in the recruitment process (18:11) A case for par...

2025-01-08•1hr 2mins
#22

Shipping projects at Big Tech with Sean Goedecke

In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Sean Goedecke, Staff Software Engineer at GitHub. Sean is widely known for his viral blog post, “How I ship projects at big tech companies.” In our conversation, he shares how to successfully deliver projects in large tech companies. Drawing from his experiences at GitHub and Zendesk, Sean reflects on key lessons learned, and we discuss the following topics: • Why shipping cannot exclude keeping management happy • How to work on stuff the company actually values • Why you should take on extra responsibility to get projects done • Why technical skills are still more important than soft skills • Soft skills you should learn: including learning the “management lingo” • First-hand remote work learnings: advantages, disadvantages, and how to thrive in this setup • … and much more! — Brought to you by ⁠DX. ⁠ DX is an engineering intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. — Where to find Sean Goedecke: • X: • LinkedIn: • Website: • GitHub: — Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (01:50) An explanation of shipping (05:35) Reasons management may choose to ship something customers don’t love (09:20) A humbling learning from Sean’s time at Zendesk (13:27) The importance of learning which rules need to be broken for good business outcomes (15:28) Common obstacles to shipping (18:13) DRI: Directly responsible individual (23:06) The value of strong technical skills and why moving fast is imperative (28:44) How to leverage your technical skills the right way (32:16) Advice on earning the trust of leadership (36:10) A time Gergely shipped a product for a political reason (38:30) What GenAI helps software engineers do more easily (41:08) Sean’s thoughts on GenAI making engineers more ambitious (43:20) The difficulty of building AI tools (46:10) Advantages of working remotely and strategies for making it work (...

2024-12-18•59mins
#23

How Notion Builds iOS and Android Apps

In today’s exciting episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by two founding native mobile engineers from Notion: Austin Louden and Karn Saheb. Austin and Karn joined Notion in 2019 when Notion started to revamp its iOS and Android apps. Today, Notion's mobile apps are used by tens of millions of users. In our conversation today, we take a deep dive into how the Notion mobile team operates and discuss: • ⁠The engineering culture at Notion • ⁠How the mobile team rewrote the mobile app from webviews and Cordova to a native implementation • ⁠Notion’s tech stack and frameworks they rely on • ⁠Details on the development process, including four types of environments, approaches to using modules, and practices around feature flags • ⁠⁠⁠How the mobile team maintains consistency across iOS and Android • ⁠… and much more! — Brought to you by DX. DX is an engineering intelligence platform designed by leading researchers — Where to find Austin Louden: • GitHub: • LinkedIn: • Website: — Where to find Karn Saheb: • GitHub: • LinkedIn: • Website: — Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (02:03) The RFC process at Notion (06:00) How Notion uses internal channels to share RFCs (07:57) Some of the unique ways the mobile team works (11:07) Why they don’t do sprint planning at Notion—and what they do instead (12:57) An overview of the size of Notion and teams at Notion (13:15) The beginning of mobile at Notion (14:40) A simple explanation of Cordova (15:40) Why Notion decided to revamp mobile in 2019 and shift to Native (18:30) How the mobile team evaluated performance as they made the shift to Native (22:00) Scaling mobile and iterations of moving to Native (26:04) Why the home tab project was so complex (30:59) Why the mobile team saved the editor for last and other future problems (34:35) How mobile works with other teams (36:50) How iOS and Android teams work together (38:28) Th...

2024-12-11•1hr 20mins

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#24

Evolution of software architecture with the co-creator of UML (Grady Booch)

Welcome to The Pragmatic Engineer! Today, I’m thrilled to be joined by Grady Booch, a true legend in software development. Grady is the Chief Scientist for Software Engineering at IBM, where he leads groundbreaking research in embodied cognition. He’s the mind behind several object-oriented design concepts, a co-author of the Unified Modeling Language, and a founding member of the Agile Alliance and the Hillside Group. Grady has authored six books, hundreds of articles, and holds prestigious titles as an IBM, ACM, and IEEE Fellow, as well as a recipient of the Lovelace Medal (an award for those with outstanding contributions to the advancement of computing). In this episode, we discuss: • ⁠⁠⁠What it means to be an IBM Fellow • ⁠⁠⁠The evolution of the field of software development • ⁠⁠⁠How UML was created, what its goals were, and why Grady disagrees with the direction of later versions of UML • ⁠⁠⁠Pivotal moments in software development history • ⁠⁠⁠How the software architect role changed over the last 50 years • ⁠⁠⁠Why Grady declined to be the Chief Architect of Microsoft – saying no to Bill Gates! • ⁠⁠⁠Grady’s take on large language models (LLMs) • ⁠⁠⁠Advice to less experienced software engineers • ⁠⁠...and much more! — Brought to you by: • ⁠⁠WorkOS⁠⁠ — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. • ⁠Sevalla⁠ — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images. • Chronosphere — The observability platform built for control. — Where to find Grady Booch: • X: • LinkedIn: • Website: Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (01:56) What it means to be a Fellow at IBM (03:27) Grady’s work with legacy systems (09:25) Some examples of domains Grady has contributed to (11:27) The evolution of the field of software development (16:23) An overview of the Booch method (20:00) Software development prior to the Booch method (22:40) Forming Rational Machines with Paul and Mike (25...

2024-12-03•1hr 30mins
#25

Linear: move fast with little process (with first EM Sabin Roman)

Linear is a small startup with a big impact: 10,000+ companies use their project management tool, including 66% of Forbes Top 50 AI companies. Founded in 2019, the company raised $52M in funding and is profitable, and full-remote. How did they pull this off with just 25 engineers? On today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by fellow Uber alum, Sabin Roman, now the first Engineering Manager at Linear. Linear, known for its powerful project and issue-tracking system, streamlines workflows throughout the product development process. In our conversation, Sabin and I compare building projects at Linear versus our experiences at Uber. He shares insights into Linear’s unique approaches, including: • ⁠⁠⁠No email. How Linear handles internal communications • ⁠⁠⁠Quality. The “goalie” program to address customer concerns and Linear’s zero bug policy • ⁠⁠⁠Full remote. How Linear keeps teams connected despite working entirely remotely • ⁠⁠⁠Getting stuff done. An in-depth, step-by-step walkthrough of a project at Linear • ⁠⁠⁠QA. Linear’s focus on quality and creativity over fash shipping • ⁠⁠⁠Career ladders. Titles at Linear, Sabin’s learnings from Uber, and much more! — Brought to you by: • Launch Darkly — a platform for high-velocity engineering teams to release, monitor, and optimize great software. • Sevalla — Deploy anything from preview environments to Docker images. • WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. — Where to find Sabin Roman: • X: • LinkedIn: Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠ • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (01:41) Sabin’s background (02:45) Why Linear rarely uses e-mail internally (07:32) An overview of Linear's company profile (08:03) Linear’s tech stack (08:20) How Linear operated without product people (09:40) How Linear stays close to customers (11:27) The shortcomings of Support Engineers at Uber and why Linear’s “goalies” work better (16:35) Focusing on bugs vs. new f...

2024-11-20•1hr 11mins
#26

Promotions and tooling at Google (with Irina Stanescu, Ex-Google)

In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Irina Stanescu, a seasoned engineer with over 14 years in software engineering and engineering leadership roles at tech companies like Google and Uber. Now an engineering leadership coach, Irina helps tech professionals build impactful careers, teaches a course on influence, and shares insights through her newsletter, The Caring Techie. In our conversation today, Irina shares her journey of rising through the ranks at Google and Uber. We dive into the following topics: An inside look at Google’s unique working processes How to build credibility as a new engineer Tactical tips for getting promoted The importance of having a career plan and guidance in designing one Having influence vs. influencing—and how to become more influential Essential leadership skills to develop And so much more — Brought to you by: • WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS. • Sonar — Trust your developers – verify your AI-generated code. — Where to find Irina Stanescu: • X: • LinkedIn: • Website: • Maven course: Impact through Influence in Engineering Teams: Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠ • YouTube: ⁠⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠ • X: ⁠⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Intro (01:34) Irina’s time at Google (03:10) An overview of ‘design docs’ at Google (08:27) The readiness review at Google (10:40) Why Irina uses spreadsheets (11:44) Irina’s favorite tools and how she uses them (13:46) How Google certifies readability (15:40) Google’s meme generator (17:36) Advice for engineers thinking about working for an organization like Google (20:14) How promotions work at Google (23:15) How Irina worked towards getting promoted (27:50) How Irina got her first mentor (30:44) Organizational shifts at Uber while Irina and Gergely were there (35:50) Why you should prioritize growth over promotion (36:50) What a career plan is and how to build one (40:40) Irina’s current role coaching engineers (42:23) A simple explanation of infl...

2024-11-06•58mins
#27

Twisting the rules of building software: Bending Spoons (the team behind Evernote)

You may not be familiar with Bending Spoons, but I guarantee you’ve encountered some of their well-known products, like Evernote and Meetup. In today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, we sit down with three key figures from the Italy-based startup: cofounder and CEO Luca Ferrari, CTO Francesco Mancone, and Evernote product lead Federico Simionato. Bending Spoons has been profitable from day one, and there's plenty we can learn from their unique culture, organizational structure, engineering processes, and hiring practices. In today’s conversation, we cover the following topics: The controversial acquisitions approach of Bending Spoons How Bending Spoons spent more than $1 billion in buying tech companies How the Evernote acquisition happened How Bending Spoons operates and how it organizes product and platform teams Why engineering processes are different across different products How ‘radical simplicity’ is baked into everything from engineering processes to pay structure. And much more! — Brought to you by: • The Enterprise Ready Conference on October 30th — For B2B leaders building enterprise SaaS. • DX — DX is an engineering intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. • ByteByteGo — Ace your next system design interview. — Where to find Luca Ferrari: • X: • LinkedIn: Where to find Francesco Mancone: • LinkedIn: Where to find Federico Simionato: • X: • LinkedIn: Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠ • YouTube: ⁠ • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠ • X: ⁠⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (2:09) Welcome, Luca, Francesco, and Federico from Bending Spoons (03:15) An overview of the well-known apps and products owned by Bending Spoons (06:38) The elephant in the room: how Bending Spoons really acquires companies (09:46) Layoffs: Bending Spoons’ philosophy on this (14:10) Controversial principles (17:16) Revenue, team size, and products (19:35) How Bending Spoons runs AI products and allocates GPUs (23:05) History of the company (27:04) The Evernote acquisition (29:50) Mode...

2024-10-23•1hr 18mins
#28

Efficient scaleups in 2024 vs 2021: Sourcegraph (with CEO & Co-founder Quinn Slack)

On today’s episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I’m joined by Quinn Slack, CEO and co-founder of Sourcegraph, a leading code search and intelligence platform. Quinn holds a degree in Computer Science from Stanford and is deeply passionate about coding: to the point that he still codes every day! He also serves on the board of Hack Club, a national nonprofit dedicated to bringing coding clubs to high schools nationwide. In this insightful conversation, we discuss: How Sourcegraph's operations have evolved since 2021 Why more software engineers should focus on delivering business value Why Quinn continues to code every day, even as a CEO Practical AI and LLM use cases and a phased approach to their adoption The story behind Job Fairs at Sourcegraph and why it’s no longer in use Quinn’s leadership style and his focus on customers and product excellence The shift from location-independent pay to zone-based pay at Sourcegraph And much more! — Brought to you by: • Paragon: ​​Build native, customer-facing SaaS integrations 7x faster. • WorkOS: For B2B leaders building enterprise SaaS — Where to find Quinn Slack: • X: • LinkedIn: • Website: — Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: ⁠ • YouTube: • LinkedIn: ⁠ • X: ⁠ — In this episode, we cover: (01:35) How Sourcegraph started and how it has evolved over the past 11 years (04:14) How scale-ups have changed (08:27) Learnings from 2021 and how Sourcegraph’s operations have streamlined (15:22) Why Quinn is for gradual increases in automation and other thoughts on AI (18:10) The importance of changelogs (19:14) Keeping AI accountable and possible future use cases (22:29) Current limitations of AI (25:08) Why early adopters of AI coding tools have an advantage (27:38) Why AI is not yet capable of understanding existing codebases (31:53) Changes at Sourcegraph since the deep dive on The Pragmatic Engineer blog (40:14) The importance of transparency and understanding the different forms of compensation (40:22) Why Sourcegraph shifted ...

2024-10-09•1hr 6mins
#29

AI tools for software engineers, but without the hype – with Simon Willison (co-creator of Django)

On the first episode of the Pragmatic Engineer Podcast, I am joined by Simon Willison. Simon is one of the best-known software engineers experimenting with LLMs to boost his own productivity: he’s been doing this for more than three years, blogging about it in the open. Simon is the creator of Datasette, an open-source tool for exploring and publishing data. He works full-time developing open-source tools for data journalism, centered on Datasette and SQLite. Previously, he was an engineering director at Eventbrite, joining through the acquisition of Lanyrd, a Y Combinator startup he co-founded in 2010. Simon is also a co-creator of the Django Web Framework. He has been blogging about web development since the early 2000s. In today’s conversation, we dive deep into the realm of Gen AI and talk about the following: Simon’s initial experiments with LLMs and coding tools Why fine-tuning is generally a waste of time—and when it’s not RAG: an overview Interacting with GPTs voice mode Simon’s day-to-day LLM stack Common misconceptions about LLMs and ethical gray areas How Simon’s productivity has increased and his generally optimistic view on these tools Tips, tricks, and hacks for interacting with GenAI tools And more! — Brought to you by: • Codeium: ​​Join the 700K+ developers using the IT-approved AI-powered code assistant. • TLDR: Keep up with tech in 5 minutes. — Where to find Simon Willison: • X: • LinkedIn: • Website: • Mastodon: — Where to find Gergely: • Newsletter: • LinkedIn: • X: — In this episode, we cover: (02:15) Welcome (05:28) Simon’s ‘scary’ experience with ChatGPT (10:58) Simon’s initial experiments with LLMs and coding tools (12:21) The languages that LLMs excel at (14:50) To start LLMs by understanding the theory, or by playing around? (16:35) Fine-tuning: what it is, and why it’s mostly a waste of time (18:03) Where fine-tuning works (18:31) RAG: an explanation (21:34) The expense of running testing on AI (23:15) Simon’s current AI stack (29:55) C...

2024-09-25•1hr 12mins
#30

The Pragmatic Engineer Podcast: Trailer

Welcome to The Pragmatic Engineer Podcast, hosted by Gergely Orosz, the author of The Pragmatic Engineer newsletter. In each episode, we dive deep into the world of software engineering, offering practical insights on scaling teams, engineering leadership, and navigating the evolving tech landscape. With industry veterans and successful engineers as guests, this podcast is perfect for anyone looking to level up their engineering career with real-world advice. Subscribe to the podcast on Spotify, YouTube or Apple.

2024-09-23•1mins

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